Text: Al-Sharq Al-Awsat Interview With Israeli COS Ya'alon On Regional Issues

2005-05-31

London Al-Sharq al-Awsat in Arabic 31 May 05 p11

[Interview with Israeli Chief of Staff Moshe Ya'alon by Nazir Mjalli; place, date not given: "Ya'alon Confirms Existence of Security Relations between Israel and Arab States in Gulf and North Africa; Israeli Chief of Staff: We Need Many Years for the Wounds To Heal and the Feelings of Hostility To Disappear"]

[FBIS Translated Text][FBIS (US Government service)]

Ya'alon will leave military service tomorrow after Defense Minister Sha'ul Mufaz has decided not to extend his service due to the sharp differences between them over the "separation plan." This interview with Ya'alon took place during the period of the numerous farewell meetings he had recently. He welcomed us warmly in Arabic. We asked him if he speaks good Arabic. He replied:

[Ya'alon] Yes, I do. I had a crash program in Arabic when I was appointed commander of the military intelligence branch. So I speak it well. I also read everything and understand the conversation language in one way or another.

[Mjalli] You had to go through several farewell meetings over the past two months after Mufaz refused to renew your service. It was said you were very emotional. Does the Israeli chief of staff weep?

[Ya'alon] We are human beings with feelings.

[Mjalli} To the point of weeping?

[Ya'alon] I try not to let them see that. But yes, there is the occasional tear. There isn't a person who doesn't get emotional, afraid, sad or painful. We try to overcome these feelings.

[Mjalli] What were your most emotional moments?

[Ya'alon] There are many emotional moments. But the saddest is when you loose people who are dear to you. But there are also happy moments, such as when I visited the United States a few weeks ago. I met an American Jew in his eighties, and I discovered that he came from the same village, where my mother was born. The man survived the holocaust to which Jews were subjected under the criminal German Nazi regime. He became very emotional when he discovered that he was meeting with the Israeli chief of staff. He said he was pleased with the establishment of Israel, as it was the best reply to Nazism.

[Mjalli] You chose to end your service by visiting "Auswitch" concentration camp in Poland. Are you from a family directly affected by Nazi crimes?

[Ya'alon] Yes, my mother was the sole survivor from my entire close family. My grandfather, grandmother and aunties and uncles were all exterminated in the holocaust.

[Mjalli] In Poland?

[Ya'alon] Yes, my mother was not sent to the annihilation camps, but managed to escape. She then joined the partisan forces that fought the Nazis.

[Mjalli] How do you sum up your service during the past three years?

[Ya'alon] I sum up the 37 years of military service in the army, and not just the period you specified, as very satisfactory.

[Mjalli] I meant summing up the three-year period in particular?

[Ya'alon] Obviously, my service during these years as chief of staff concentrated on fighting terrorism, which broke out in the year 2000. I assumed my duties as chief of staff in the summer of 2002, when many Israelis were suffering. I took upon myself to achieve calm. I believe that both sides have suffered greatly from this war.

[Mjalli] Not in the same degree of course?

[Ya'alon] It was obvious that the Palestinian side suffered most. So I set an aim for myself to achieve calm, first and foremost. Unfortunately, however, all attempts failed. The reason, I believe, was that Yasir Arafat did not want that.

[Mjalli] What attempts are you talking about?

[Ya'alon] About many attempts, such as the meetings hat were held between the field commanders of the security services and top officers. I recall the meeting that took place in Paris on 4 October 2000. Prime Minister Ehud Baraq went there and I personally joined him. It was also attended by then US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. The chairman (Arafat) avoided that meeting as he did not want to reach a cease-fire.

Another attempt was made in Sharm al-Shaykh. That was at the beginning of the clashes. The two sides committed themselves to several things, but the Palestinian side did not fulfill them. I was convinced that the previous Palestinian leadership would not come forth because Arafat did not want the cease-fire. Arafat thought that the Israeli society would collapse as a result of the violence. But it did not. In fact, it flourished at a certain stage.

[Mjalli] Are you saying that he wanted the Israeli society to collapse; could this have been his aim?

[Ya'alon] At the end of 1996 I was brigade commander in the central region. I wrote up a report in which I made a clearly assessment that Arafat would lead a war in September 2000. I reached the assessment when the Israeli Prime Minister (Binyamin Netanyahu at the time) announced that he would reach a permanent agreement with the Palestinians within 15 months. Arafat began the preparations for war.

[Mjalli] Didn't Arafat want a final settlement of the conflict?

[Ya'alon] To Arafat, a final settlement would have meant reaching a compromise solution based on the 1967 borders and the recognition of Israel as a Jewish state. He did not want the conflict to end this way. Proof is that he rejected the Baraq proposals at Camp David and set off the clashes (intifadah).

[Mjalli] To my knowledge, the clashes occurred when then opposition leader, Ari'el Sharon, visited Al-Aqsa Mosque?

[Ya'alon] Had this visit not taken place, Arafat would have invented another reason for that. So I disagree with those who called it intifadah. Normally, intifadah is a popular uprising and this was not so, but an armed terrorist onslaught. True, they tried to take students out of their schools and close restaurants, but the most significant development was firing fatal bullets at Israelis. Arafat revived the armed Fatah Movement Organization [tanzim], and we know that the commanders of the Palestinian security services had a hot argument with him on this subject. They told him these armed men would threaten their position and they would not be able then to control the street. But he ignored them and the reason was that he wanted his men to practice terrorism so that could claim that these men were not from the PA and that it was a popular uprising.

[Mjalli] What you are saying conflicts with other Israeli assessments, which said that the intifadah was a spontaneous reaction to Sharon's visit and that, as usual, Arafat joined and led the uprising so it would not turn against him?

[Ya'alon] Whenever Arafat wished to stop violent incidents he succeeded without any problem. We were witnesses to many such incidents. An Israeli soldier once fired bullets at a Palestinian youth in Hebron, wounding him seriously. Some tried to exploit this incident to start clashes. We went to Arafat and he calmed down the situation in a matter of minutes. But when he wanted to cause clashes, he had no problem. Don't you remember how they marked Al-Nakbah [catastrophe - reference to the events that befell the Palestinians in 1948] in the year 2000 by firing 6,000 shots on Israeli targets, with Marwan al-Barghuthi bragging about it then? Arafat did not want to reach a final agreement based on the 1967 borders.

[Mjalli] Do you want an agreement based on the 1967 borders?

[Ya'alon] Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Baraq made a clear proposal at Camp David.

[Mjalli] Fine, Arafat is now dead and the Palestinian leadership is under....?

[Ya'alon] One moment, what I am trying to say is that it could have been possible to reach an agreement on these bases, but Arafat prevented that.

[Mjalli] And I am trying to move to the present situation. Mahmud Abbas (Abu-Mazin) has replaced Arafat and he speaks very clearly about and works for stopping the violence. Yet, he is not treated differently by the Israeli side?

[Ya'alon] I meant to say that the war was not necessary. It was forcibly imposed on us, and my duty was to run it and achieve calm. My whole concern during this war was to distinguish between Arafat, his supporters, and perpetrators of terrorist operations like HAMAS, Islamic Jihad and Fatah on the one hand, and the silent majority of the Palestinian people on the other. I made it a point to give the calm municipalities maximum freedom and to punish the municipalities that engaged in terrorism. Take Hebron, for example. In the summer of 2002 we removed most checkpoints and permitted thousands of workers and businessmen to enter Israel. Unfortunately, however, we were compelled to cancel that in November 2002 following an operation against worshippers. This was followed by Islamic Jihad operation. This municipality was a model. We tried to do the same thing in Jericho. Operations were also carried out there and we backed down.

[Mjalli] I don't want to take you back to those days when many Palestinian children and civilians were killed. I want to concentrate on the Abu-Mazin period. The man carries clear ideas against violence. And since assuming power after Arafat, some 25 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli bullets and the collective punishments have not stopped?

[Ya'alon] First, I hail the Palestinians' selection of a leadership that frankly declares the need for stopping the violence and the intifadah. At first Abu-Mazin used to say that terrorism must stop. Now he says that the intifadah must stop. He also says there must be one authority and one weapon. This is good news

Nevertheless, we observe that he is very hesitant. We don't see him firm. We don't see any real progress. Things with this leadership are proceeding very slowly. There are forces exploiting this situation and strengthening their power. These are the terrorist forces linked to HAMAS and others. Al-Qassam Missiles are still made and weapons are still smuggled from Sinai to Gaza and the West Bank. They should have started with the reform immediately and not waited four months to undertake this task. They should have made it clear to HAMAS and others that they could not tolerate the continuation of their line. They appease them. And I don't know if they should be included in the elections before they have transformed themselves into a political party.

[Mjalli] You are ignoring the fact that Abu-Mazin is the president of the Palestinian people and that it is his right to run his affairs his own way. Why should he work according to your way? He tells you: Give me time. I know what I want. In the end, he wants to reach what you want to reach, but according to his own method and calculations?

[Ya'alon] We have given him and are giving him time and we have endured many bombings. Do you remember the bombing that took place at "Stage" nightclub in Tel Aviv? I had expected the PA to accuse the party that claimed responsibility for the operation; namely, Islamic Jihad, which exists in Gaza. Its activists took off from the town of Sayda north of Tulkarm. But, the PA pointed the finger of suspicion at a third party in Lebanon. I say that the Lebanese Hizballah had nothing to do with this operation.

[Mjalli] The finger of suspicion was directed at Hizballah in Lebanon not just in the case of this operation but many other operations?

[Ya'alon] Not in this operation. Hizballah operates Fatah activists in the West Bank. But the Tel Aviv operation was carried out by Islamic Jihad. Had the PA been serious it would have arrested Muhammad al-Hindi, who lives in Gaza. This is how to take a firm stand. As to this way, we are returning to the old method of walking on a tight rope.

[Mjalli] When you say that the executors of the Tel Aviv operation took off from Tulkarm, this means that they actually took off from area under your control. How can you accuse the PA when its power is nothing compared to yours?

[Ya'alon] I am not saying that they should have stopped the operation in this case. But they should have conveyed a message to Islamic Jihad that they cannot tolerate any operation by them. Why does Abu-Mazin turn to a third party and does not say anything to those under his control?

[Mjalli] Does Israel do what it asks Abu-Mazin to do when Palestinians fall victims to Israeli operations?

[Ya'alon] Some time ago, an Israeli soldier fired bullets at three youths near the Palestinian-Egyptian border. They should not have fired bullets on them. We carried out an investigation and took measures. Incidentally, the Palestinians claimed that the three children were playing football. This was not correct. They were engaged in smuggling. When the PA behaves in this way, it only sends an encouragement message to these forces. So it is not a coincidence to see HAMAS firing rockets in the direction of the settlements.

[Mjalli] What do you speak so offensively against HAMAS when you and other Israeli leaders praised this movement and said it is most committed to the truce?

[Ya'alon] I still stand by my words. HAMAS has been and still is most committed to the truce. But it fired rockets recently. The other organizations also abided by the truce for a while and then went back to violating their commitments.

The question is the Palestinians are trying to find a new equation for the conflict. Whenever we hit one of them under whatever circumstances, they hit back. But they also hit back when we have nothing to do with the subject. Only last week, a Palestinian opened indiscriminate fire, hurting a Palestinian girl. They fired bullets at us to acquit themselves. After a while the Palestinian Court issued a decision for reelection in three ballot boxes in Gaza. They fired bullets on our soldiers stationed on the border strip. Now what is this? Do you call this one authority?

[Mjalli] Agreements and understandings are violated in every conflict. The normal thing is to form a coordination committee to tackle such phenomena in an objective manner so that the two sides will guarantee that there won't be any deterioration of the situation. There are also Israeli-Palestinian coordination committees. Why don't you activate them?

[Ya'alon] Meetings are held. Only yesterday, we discussed the subject of the release of prisoners.

[Mjalli] I mean committees on the field level and even higher political level.

[Ya'alon] The political level is not within my responsibility, although I know that there have been several meetings between the ministers. On the military level, however, there are daily field meetings. There are also weekly meetings on the level of the higher regional commands. The problem is the orders issued from above are not firm.

[Mjalli] So in your opinion the problem lies with Abu-Mazin?

[Ya'alon] The issue is not my opinion.

[Mjalli] But, we have so far heard a different opinion from you. You said that Abu-Mazin carries new winds to the Palestinian leadership and shows that he is completely different from the late President Arafat. And you criticized the government because it does not help him enough. Why have you changed your opinion?

[Mjalli] I do not give marks or express an opinion, but present a situation as it is.

[Mjalli] Does the Sharon government help Au-Mazin?

[Ya'alon] Israel does not assume responsibility for the failure of Abu-Mazin during his term as head of government or now.

[Mjalli] Does the Sharon government help him?

[Ya'alon] There is a clear debate in Israel on this subject. Some say give him more, and others say give him less. But, this is not the core of the issue. He is an insider. If he did not firmly decide to implement the principle of one authority, one weapon the problem would persist.

[Mjalli] If you wanted to sum up your work during this period, would you say you are at peace with yourself? Dan Halutz, the chief of staff who will replace you, is known to have said he slept peacefully after assassinating HAMAS military commander Salah Shihadah, although the operation led to the death of 16 civilians, including 9 children. What do you say when these and others were killed under your command?

[Ya'alon] I am at peace with myself. But this does not mean that there weren't any flops and mistakes. Several innocent people were hurt during the fighting when we did not mean to hurt them at all.

[Mjalli] Many children and women, some say almost 1,600?

[Ya'alon] How many did you say?

[Mjalli] There were 1,600 children and women victims according to Palestinian statistics.

[Ya'alon] I won't accept this figure and I am ready to face whoever suggested it.

[Mjalli] What is your estimate?

[Ya'alon] I saw the lists and statistics. If you mean by children everyone less than 18 years old, including the youth who were killed while blowing themselves up or were killed while on their to carry out the bombing, this is another subject. If a 16-year old youth comes to me in an attempt to shoot at the soldiers, this is not a child. I mean the innocent people, who were hurt without their having any role in the battles, and this to me is regrettable.

[Mjalli] Regrettable only?

[Ya'alon] These things have pained me and made me sleepless and still do. We are not an army specialized in killing innocent people.

[Mjalli] Still, innocent people were killed?

[Ya'alon] I tell you, this is a bad thing to me. You mentioned Salah Shihadah. Let me explain this case. The man was considered the father of terrorism, since he assumed the responsibility for killing tens of Jewish and Arab victims. We had the chance to liquidate him several times, but we declined to do that due to his deliberate presence among civilians. At last we received intelligence information that the house near which he would pass was empty of people. Thus we bombed the house; and to my great regret it transpired afterward that some families had entered the house and spent the night in it. So they were hit and this disturbed me very much. At any rate, when you ask me to sum up the three years of service as chief of staff I tell you that my basic aim was to end these clashes and achieve calm.

[Mjalli] As commander of an army, which is said be one of the most powerful in the world, don't you feel embarrassed when some Israeli military men speak about victory over the Palestinians; such a huge army facing groups of armed men?

[Ya'alon] We didn't use one percent of our power in this war, whether tanks or planes. Unfortunately, those who ran the war on the other side knew exactly how sensitive we were. We will not destroy Bayt Hanun in reply to the shelling, although we can do that. But they exploited that to the end.

[Mjalli] The Israeli Army carried out operations involving demolition of houses and razing of lands. It did that in a very ugly manner. Today when we see how you plan to deal gently with the settlers, who will vacate the settlements, we wonder: Why this discrimination? Could it not have been possible to also deal humanely with the Palestinians?

[Ya'alon] He who uses plantations to fire Al-Qassam missiles on our settlements must expect a reply. They assumed the responsibility and they should have taken that into account and stopped targeting civilian positions. We only replied. We didn't start it. We then attacked the never center of terrorism and achieved a big success.

As far as dealing with the Palestinians, let me tell you that I have very good relations with many of them. They are the ones who prefer not to publish anything about this. But during the talks they admit our humane dealing, as it is our general character and not those mistakes that occur and which we fight.

[Mjalli] What kind of relations do you have with the Arab World?

[Ya'alon] I have excellent relations with Jordanian chief of staff and his senior officers. We are in constant touch.

[Mjalli] And Egypt?

[Ya'alon] Unfortunately, we don't have such relations. But our relations with Egypt are generally positive.

[Mjalli] Are there relations of security or military cooperation with Arab states?

[Ya'alon] There are relations with some states in the Gulf and North Africa.

[Mjalli] Do you think that Israel needs this military power despite the sharp changes in the regional and world military balance? Don't you think that this power harms Israeli society itself and turns into a violent and arrogant society?

[Ya'alon] The core of the security issue in Israel lies in the fact that many elements in the region do not want to accept Israel as a state for the Jewish people, expressing this people's right to self determination.

[Mjalli] You certainly do not mean the Arab states, which have made a decision to accept Israel and peace with it after withdrawal from the territories occupied in 1967 and the settlement of the Palestine question?

[Ya'alon] I don't mean Egypt and Jordan. But I mean Iran, Hizballah, HAMAS, and Islamic Jihad. All these say that the Jewish state has no right to exist. HAMAS wants an Islamic state from the river to the sea.

[Mjalli] This does not call for this military arsenal. Don't you think that the unanimous Arab stand on peace deserves that you make a strategic change in Israeli policy and military?

[Ya'alon] Yes, but we have Iran. While we do not have any land or border disputes with Iran, it has taken a strategically hostile stand and it clearly declares a principled stand on the need to eliminate us. It also tries to export its extremist stand to our neighboring states in the region. Moreover it threatens moderate Arab states, especially those that have established relations with us such as Egypt and Jordan. Iran also tries to dominate Lebanon and wishes that Abu-Mazin would fall, works for his failure, and supplies Hizballah with medium range missiles to fight us, although there is no longer any dispute between us and Lebanon. More than that, it tries to develop its nuclear capabilities.

[Mjalli] This Iranian stand should have made Israel expedite peace with the Arabs and help Abu-Mazin, and actually seek an alliance with them against the Iranian threat?

[Ya'alon] This is political issue that falls within the responsibility of the government and not the army. But let me complete the answer to the previous question about the huge power of the Israeli Army. The power of this army was a decisive factor in changing the policies of some of states that have established relations with us. Were it not for this power, Israel would not have existed today. I personally wish that this power would remain as a deterrent force and no more and that we would never have to use it.

[Mjalli] You said a short while ago that Israel could defend itself from the north if a peace agreement were reached with Syria including withdrawal from the Golan Heights. Do you still believe that?

[Ya'alon] Yes this is correct. But I stress the word peace and the need for a serious Syrian leadership in the peace process.

[Mjalli] And Egypt; why is the army not in favor of the Egyptians assuming deployment responsibility on the border strip between Gaza and Sinai?

[Ya'alon] We want to guarantee rooting out the smuggling phenomenon from Sinai and this will not be resolved by increasing the number of soldiers. The smuggling across the Sinai begins from Libya, the Sudan, and Yemen and not from Egypt alone. We demand that they stamp it out from the remote Egyptian borders instead of waiting until the smugglers arrived in northern Sinai and then take action.

[Mjalli] There is an issue on which we did not hear your opinion, although it concerns you directly. It is inconceivable for your military record to be closed without broaching this issue. This is the story of your assassination of Palestinian leader Khalil al-Wazir [Abu-Jihad] in Tunis?

[Ya'alon] I read about it in the papers.

[Mjalli] Why are you avoiding the question? It is said that you were not satisfied with seeing his body sprawled on the floor. You actually fired several bullets at it and then entered his bedroom and fired more bullets on the walls in a rather hysterical manner?

[Ya'alon] This is what they say.

[Mjalli] And what do you say?

[Ya'alon] I don't say anything.

[Mjalli] What do you say about your political differences with the government, especially Prime Minister Sharon and Defense Minister Mufaz?

[Ya'alon] I am still wearing the military uniform. And since I have not taken it off yet I cannot say anything about that.

[Mjalli] Finally, with what message will you leave the army; do you see the day when the Israeli youth will not need military service and war and there will be peaceful relations?

[Ya'alon] First, I wish that this day would come. As you know I am a farmer to start with. I left the army and returned to the farm. But I was called up again because of the October 1973 War. I wished I had not been a soldier. I believe that the Israeli people too do not want war or militarism. The question is: What are the possibilities of reaching peace? The basic issue, in my opinion, is the Palestine question. Many years will pass before the wounds are healed and the feelings of hostility between us are removed. Still, I really wish that peace would be achieved as soon as possible and that Israel would extend its hand in peace.

[Description of Source: London Al-Sharq al-Awsat in Arabic -- Influential Saudi-owned London daily providing independent coverage of Arab and international issues; editorials reflect official Saudi views on foreign policy]

Source: IMRA – Independent Media Review and Analysis